Inoffizielles Wortprotokoll: Der PEGA-Untersuchungsausschuss beschäftigt sich wieder mit Griechenland, zudem war der Direktor der EU-Agentur für Grundrechte zu Gast
Good morning, colleagues. Welcome to our PEGA committee this Tuesday morning in Brussels. We have interpretation in the following languages: German, English, French, Italian, Greek, Spanish, Hungarian, Polish, Slovakian, Slovenian, Bulgarian and Romanian. If there are no comments, I consider the agenda of today’s meeting adopted.
Concerning spyware, the Predator spyware, these procedures advanced at a normal rate in spite of some problems and some frictions that we had to face.
I would like to clarify, I would like to say that the Data Protection Authority in Greece does not have the competence to control whether lifting of confidentiality ordered by state authorities is something legal or not. This is in the competence of ADAE.
We have requested data from Meta and from Google as well. We did this because these companies had publicly mentioned that they observed predator functioning in many countries. Among these countries was Greece. From these companies, we have taken some initial information, we estimate. At least we hope that we are going to receive more useful information. Although I must say that there is some difficulty concerning direct communication with these companies.
At this moment, the investigations are continuing. And we tried to find the identity of those who receive the SMS and the various prosecuting authorities know about these actions we’re following. And we also gave instructions for non-destruction of data addressed to various companies, specific companies, after we found the points through which these SMS were sent.
And then I was listening with great interest to the presentation by Mr. Menoudakos. I hear you say you have confirmed some 300 different SMS messages that have been sent and approximately 100 persons who have received such messages. That number is already a lot more, a lot higher than we heard so far. And they have been sent through sort of intermediate companies.
And then finally, my final question. Spyware can be a very powerful instrument in the hands of a political party, in particular a government party. And it can be used or it gives a considerable and unfair advantage over political opponents, and in particular when it’s being used that way deliberately. I find that a reason for concern in a democracy. That is why we are conducting these investigations.
Now, concerning the spyware, you’re right, Mrs. in ‚t Veld. You’re right. These SMS are sent by a false number. Let’s say it’s a virtual number from which they are sent. In two cases that we have investigated or other in one case, We had conclusions similar to the ones presented by Mr. Menoudakos. That means we controlled, we checked the phone number of the provider from which the phone number belonging, for which the link came the link that was carrying the spyware, the predator spyware.
On Europol, we do not have the authority to request cooperation with Europol. This is a competence of the prosecuting authorities. These were the questions, I think. I don’t know if there’s something else that I did not answer to. Thank you.I think that very well answered the questions posed by Mrs. in ‚t Veld and we move to our next speaker, Mr. Zoido on behalf of the EPP. Please.Thank you very much. And thank you, Mr. Rammos and Mr. Menoudakos.
Fourthly. What do you think about investing as the government might have used software like Pegasus? And then according to your legislation of your country, are you really going to take away confidentiality or do the people have to inform their hierarchies? If they’re going to take away confidentiality.
Now, this spyware. Predator. If it’s related to the EYP. Do we have any proof? No, we do not have any proof on this. We are investigating. Justice is investigating, but proof. We have none. You said you talked about confidentiality. If the director of the EYP knows about it. From what I understood. What the legislation says in Greece, the Greek legislation envisages the following, that lifting confidentiality takes place after a decision of a prosecutor of second degree, of second level court.
Instead of all this what we are living and we are experiencing is an incredible reaction of the philosophy of the establishment. Instead of showing who are guilty and to be taken to justice, the victims, the targets, and the judges who are trying to publicise what happened, the judges themselves are targets of moral attacks, trying to undermine them and try to kill them politically. Mr. Rammos was a target during the previous period by specific media and ministers of the Government because Mr.
And then how can we in this inquiry committee help you with respect to helping your data protection authorities? The EYP? What kind of recommendations could you make to us, as well as to your Greek national deputies and your members? How do you explain the small number of complaints? That was the other question. It’s not a small number. Every day we have approximately ten new complaints and now for the last month, it’s not a small number at all. People become more sensitive on the issue after the various publications, and this has led to people wanting and requesting information from us, independently of what information we can give. We are not the most competent authority.
And then another question about companies established outside the European Union. Mr. Rammos, you mentioned sanctions and fines in case of the breaches of European law.
Let me first take the legal developments since 2017. In the first instance at the EU level, well, of course, there was the adoption of the General Data Protection Regulation and also of the Law Enforcement Directive. Very importantly, there was clarifying jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice regarding the competency of the EU in these matters.
In the first place, we obviously need a clear legal framework, honoured the principle of legality. In the second, and notwithstanding the oversight role of Parliament. We do need an independent expert body with sufficient powers and competence. And in terms of powers and competence, such oversight bodies need to have a match, must match the power and the scope and the jurisdiction of the intelligence services. Third, it’s not enough to have a matching mandate.
But then you also mentioned that there is the case of La Quadrature du net versus France, I believe, which in the ruling in those case, you say there a first rudimentary outline of the notion of national security or a kind of demarcation of notion of national security is given. You’ve seen that in my draft reports, and I hope this is going to make it through the final vote, I also recommend that there should be a definition of national security or rather a demarcation, if you want.
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